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 Women and protein. 
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Post Women and protein.
I just read this, I was not aware. Just made me go hmmmmm.....

"Frequency of protein consumption is even more vital for women, who aren't able to digest as much protein at one time as men are"

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:35 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
That's the sort of thing that I'd dismiss as rubbish unless it referenced a reputable source. People write so much shit about nutrition these days that if you dismissed as rubbish the next 100 things you read, you be right in 99* of those cases.



* Number plucked out of my arse, may not be totally accurate.

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:10 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
you and coma know a shitton about nutrition and know how to find what you don't know. how about a thread on female nutrition as relating to weight training? (taking into account hormone differences with men and all that shit)

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:17 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
Cheeky Monkey wrote:
you and coma know a shitton about nutrition and know how to find what you don't know. how about a thread on female nutrition as relating to weight training? (taking into account hormone differences with men and all that shit)

If I get a free moment later I'll have a poke about. Until then I'll go out on a limb and say they're almost certainly no different. The only reason I can think that they might be would be a smaller digestive tract due to having a smaller body size. Bear in mind that this would only apply based on the reasoning that the average woman is smaller than the average man, and since when is anyone average? Plus you'd need to factor in that the smaller you are the less protein you'd need anyway so I'd suspect it'd all even out.

Obviously I'm speculating with the above and there might be factors that I'm not aware of. However, strictly speaking burden of proof does fall to whoever made the assertion. Chi chi, can you tell us where you heard that, and if it was online do you still have a link you can post up?

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:22 pm
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Post Re: Women and protein.
CosmicFish wrote:
Cheeky Monkey wrote:
you and coma know a shitton about nutrition and know how to find what you don't know. how about a thread on female nutrition as relating to weight training? (taking into account hormone differences with men and all that shit)

If I get a free moment later I'll have a poke about. Until then I'll go out on a limb and say they're almost certainly no different. The only reason I can think that they might be would be a smaller digestive tract due to having a smaller body size. Bear in mind that this would only apply based on the reasoning that the average woman is smaller than the average man, and since when is anyone average? Plus you'd need to factor in that the smaller you are the less protein you'd need anyway so I'd suspect it'd all even out.

Obviously I'm speculating with the above and there might be factors that I'm not aware of. However, strictly speaking burden of proof does fall to whoever made the assertion. Chi chi, can you tell us where you heard that, and if it was online do you still have a link you can post up?



Thank you for saving me all that typing cause that was exactly where I was gonna go. Next we'll hear that women's muscles are made of different elements than men and therefor they shouldnt do anything a man does... :aok:

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:44 pm
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Post Re: Women and protein.
lolwut

i think you're reading things into it that i wasn't saying

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:05 pm
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Post Re: Women and protein.
Cheeky Monkey wrote:
lolwut

i think you're reading things into it that i wasn't saying



You mean me, FOD? I wasnt making a crack at you. Sorry if it seemed that way. I was just goofin on how far some folks like to take the man vs woman thing, is all. I'm sure someone out there is cooking up a hypothesis about how women's muscles dont contract the same way mens' do or some such stuff.

As far as the protein thing... what Cos said :D :ohyeah:

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:00 pm
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Post Re: Women and protein.
i have actually heard someone say that this week... made me want to punch them.

what i was getting at was more like regulating hormone production through diet (or confirming if that's even possible), such as, for example, reducing the release of estrogen to theoretically facilitate the building of muscle mass.

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:17 pm
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Post Re: Women and protein.
Cheeky Monkey wrote:
i have actually heard someone say that this week... made me want to punch them.

what i was getting at was more like regulating hormone production through diet (or confirming if that's even possible), such as, for example, reducing the release of estrogen to theoretically facilitate the building of muscle mass.

Well I'm going off old memories and a layman's understanding of the science here, so if anyone else knows better, please hop in to correct me! But from what I recall, it's not so much the amount of estrogen that's a problem but that women produce less testosterone. Estrogen can be seen as a problem only if it's being produced in larger amounts from testosterone*, and thus reducing the amount of testosterone that's available for producing muscle. As far as diet is concerned I can't think of anything that's going to make enough of a difference in that area that it's worth pursuing. Again, unless someone else has more info, my advice would be to stick to healthy foods and let the body sort itself out.

*To expand on this, estrogen can be created from testosterone via a process known as aromatisation. The enzyme aromatase turns testosterone into estrogen, reducing the former and increasing the latter. If either a man or a woman want to reduce the amount of this conversion, it makes sense to reduce the amount of aromatase in the body. Aromatase is produced inside fat cells and is proportional to how fat the person is, so there's a simple way to reduce it: lose body fat.

Again, please bear in mind that this is from someone with a simplistic and layman's understanding of what's going on, so take with a pinch of salt!

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Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:01 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
Really? I didn't know that. I seem to remember estrogen actively reduces muscle mass..

Yup

Quote:
Structural

* promote formation of female secondary sex characteristics
* accelerate metabolism
* reduce muscle mass


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen

Not sure how accurate that article is though. Any moron can edit Wikipedia.

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Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:29 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
Is there anything we can do to produce more testosterone?

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Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:29 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
Winnie's a punk wrote:
Really? I didn't know that. I seem to remember estrogen actively reduces muscle mass..

Yup

Quote:
Structural

* promote formation of female secondary sex characteristics
* accelerate metabolism
* reduce muscle mass


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen

Not sure how accurate that article is though. Any moron can edit Wikipedia.

You might well be right, I can't honestly swear that I am. My understanding of how estrogen "reduces" muscle mass - it was once explained that it occupies the receptor sites instead of testosterone, so it effectively blocks test from doing it's thing. Again, I'm not being very helpful with this next comment, I know, but from memory, I think a certain amount of estrogen is needed to build muscle too. I really should get around to studying this stuff in more detail.

As for increasing test: plenty of healthy saturated fats from natural sources combined with heavy weightlifting would be my preferred route. And if anyone thinks that sat fats are bad for you, well that's a whole different discussion. ;)

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Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:44 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
You may be right about some estrogen being needed for muscle mass: http://www.musclesweb.net/blog/estrogen ... -building/

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Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:54 am
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Post Re: Women and protein.
Some interesting articles I've found... granted they are taken from the perspective of steroid use and ultimately speak to that point but if you read through the articles there are many bits which also speak to the question at hand: Does estrogen aid in building muscle? Most authors seem to feel it is a far more important piece to the puzzle than previously believed.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/planet32.htm

Quote:
Estrogen and GH/IGF-1
To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via GH stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that GH secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of GH in women under normal physiological situations.

It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of GH and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels. Yet another study shows that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for GH and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen
Estrogen may play an even more vital role in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. G6PD is an important enzyme in the support anabolism, as it is directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle growth and recuperation. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically. G6PD enzyme plays a vital role in what is known as the pentose phosphate pathway, and as such this rise is believed to enhance the PPP related process in which nucleic acids and lipids are synthesized in cells; fostering the repair of muscle tissue.

A 1980 study at the University of Maryland has shown that levels of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase rise after administration of testosterone propionate, and further that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is directly responsible for this increase.[x] In this study neither dihydrotestosterone nor fluoxymesterone could mimic the affect of testosterone propionate on levels of G6PD, an affect that was also blocked by the addition of the potent anti-aromatase 4-hydroxyandrostenedione to testosterone. 17-beta estradiol administration caused a similar increase in G6PD, which was not noticed when its inactive estrogen isomer 17-alpha estradiol (unable to bind the estrogen receptor) was given. An anti-androgen could also not block the positive action of testosterone. This study provides one of the first palatable explanations for a direct and positive effect of estrogen on muscle tissue.

by William Llewellyn


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bigcat8.htm

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Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.


Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:18 am
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